[00:00:00] Bruno Cignacco: Will you make profit
[00:00:01] by deceiving customers?
[00:00:03] Will you make profit
[00:00:04] by exploiting employees?
[00:00:06] Will you make profit
[00:00:08] by polluting the environment?
[00:00:09] Pol Cousineau: What are some examples
[00:00:10] of these companies?
[00:00:12] Bruno Cignacco: Do not buy this jacket.
[00:00:14] Do not buy this jacket.
[00:00:15] They are selling jacket
[00:00:16] and do not buy.
[00:00:16] Why?
[00:00:17] Do not buy this jacket
[00:00:19] if you don’t need it.
[00:00:20] Pol Cousineau: But a lot of people
[00:00:21] listening may not know
[00:00:23] which area of their company
[00:00:25] could have
[00:00:26] lower customer service
[00:00:27] or impacts, right?
[00:00:28] Bruno Cignacco: It’s so simple
[00:00:29] that people will be surprised.
[00:00:31] Look at your reviews.
[00:00:33] Look at customer reviews online.
[00:00:35] When you sell,
[00:00:36] customer will leave reviews
[00:00:38]
[00:00:45] Pol Cousineau: Welcome to Mind of All Trades, the podcast where edupreneurs turn knowledge into impact. I’m your host, Pol Cousineau, and together we explore the craft and commerce of educational businesses. We look at the strategies, we look at the systems, and we look at the real implementation work that has to happen behind the scenes.
[00:01:05] Before we dive in, make sure you subscribe so you don’t miss future episodes. We’ll be sharing practical guides, conversations, and examples for edupreneurs who are building real momentum in their business. Now let’s get into today’s episode
[00:01:19] today’s guest is Bruno Cignacco, who has run his international consultancy since 1993. He is an international business consultant, TEDx speaker, university lecturer, and bestselling author with more than 30 years of experience advising and training hundreds of companies worldwide on international trade, marketing, negotiation, and compassionate business.
[00:01:47] Clearly, he has a wealth of information and advice for us today. He’s also a senior fellow of the Higher Education Academy in the UK, and in 2024, he was named by World’s Leaders Magazine as one of the world’s most transformational leaders changing the face of business. He is based in London. Bruno teaches that companies can be both profitable and compassionate at the same time.
[00:02:13] You can connect with Bruno through his website, brunocignacco.com, and I will be putting that link inside of our show notes. Welcome to the show, Bruno.
[00:02:25] Bruno Cignacco: Thank you for your invite, Pol. I feel very honored to be here. Thank you very much
[00:02:30] Pol Cousineau: I was excited to have you because of your wealth of experience and all of the teaching and consulting that you’ve done. And not only have you written books, you also lecture, you’ve done a TEDx, so definitely a lot of, uh, teaching, right? And what I want t- to do today is share a lot about your experience of how you’ve been building that, uh, career, right, as a teacher.
[00:02:58] And I also wanted to explore where profitable and compassionate business intersect, because that… I mean, I have to say, it sounds like a little bit of a novel idea. I’ve studied business in university. I actually studied as an accountant, and we have mentioned things like PPP, and there’s other ways to make people and other things matter with profit.
[00:03:22] But in the real world, as I examine things closely, it’s very rare that I see a company that appears to be compassionate and profitable. It seems to be only in the textbook. So I’d like to start there, because this has been a large part of your work, and if you can share a little bit about how profitability and compassion intersect.
[00:03:43] Bruno Cignacco: Very interesting question. Thank you very much. Well, for many people appear to be two incompatible concepts. Profits, that is a very i-i-important concept for company survival, but also for company success and development, and on the other side, a concept that is very human-oriented, compassion. Compassion that include other important values or principle, like kindness, uh, care, generosity, gratitude, and these are human-oriented.
[00:04:17] Many people do not relate it to business circles because they say that this concept, this principle need to be applied only to family members, to partners, to friends. However, in my latest research, in my latest book, I discover hundreds of companies that can be at the same time both compassionate, means caring for people, uh, wishing their…
[00:04:45] the best for them, uh, try to support them whenever possible, try to be people-oriented, and at the same time they can be very profitable. Not only very profitable, but also with, with an excellent brand image and excellent reputation, with very loyal customers and with high-quality investor that are not only looking for a profitability, but are also looking for the allocation of their asset into companies that are caring not only for profit, but for the environment, for the world in general. So, and I started many years ago researching on this topic, only triggered by an article that was commenting about the importance of caring for people at work, connecting to other colleagues at work in a much more caring way, in person, be-being connected to others in a mental and emotional level. And this intrigued me a lot, and I started researching, and there is a lot of research-based science, papers, books, scientific studies that corroborate the fact that when companies put people first, this mean that the priority is to care for people, to look for their wellbeing on a regular basis, not on a, on a speculative basis. On a regular basis, building a strong relationship with them. These companies, as a side benefit, tend to become more profitable, tend to have a much better work environment, what the expert call a psychologically safe workplace, where people care for one another. They are very productive. They are very innovative. They want to go to work. The absenteeism goes down in these workplaces. The stress goes down, and also the productivity goes up, and there is a lot of cooperation And why this side effect is created when you put people first? I was intrigued about this. How can this be that you put people first instead of pu-putting profit first, as most company do? Because when you put people first, they tend to respond alike. They tend to, uh, when you care for people, this trigger a principle called social reciprocity. You care for people, and then at the same time, they’re caring for you. You care for employees, and they give you their best. They work overtime. They work unconditionally to meet the objective.
[00:07:17] When you care for customer and wish the best for them, they become more loyal. They recommend your product to other, uh, cus- potential customer. When you care for supplier, you build long relationship with supplier. So this is the first principle that I discovered, and I dissect this principle very thoroughly in my s- uh, later research, in my second edition of the book. And but also, there is another principle that is quite important You cannot force people to do anything. When you respect people, when you respect their autonomy, for example, you respect the autonomy of workers, allowing them to decide the best way to do things, the best way to undertake project, the best way to, for example, achieve the objectives.
[00:08:06] You rely on them and you trust them. You don’t treat this as a naughty child that need to be, uh, micromanaged. When you care for customer also, try not to hard sell, try to recommend the best for them, and if possible, if you don’t have anything suitable for them, you recommend product from your competing companies. When you care for them and you respect the autonomy of other people, these people tend to give them their best. You are more prone to, uh, unleash their potential. Why? Because when people feel free to decide, they feel, feel to act in the best way possible according to their experience, their knowledge, their expertise, people tend to give their best.
[00:08:48] So the concept of reciprocity is important, but the concept of autonomy, that is very difficult to find in companies in many cases, uh, because many companies tend to micromanage their employees. These are fundamental for business success. But it’s quite relevant, there is a third principle that I mention in the book is, what is business? What is the building brick of any business endeavor? Many people will say now, “Oh, now with all the, uh, technological advancement, it’s artificial intelligence.” Other people might say, “No, no, the most important resource in any company is money.” Other will say, “No, no, no, the most important resource is, uh, um, assets, any type of assets or stock.” Not at all. The most important asset in any business endeavor, regardless of the sector, is the human being. The human being is a meta resource. When you care for the human being, uh, and it’s a meta resource because it’s a resource that help companies generate other resources, help generate business model, help generate, uh, processes, new technology, generate business research, and so on. When you care for the human being, this human being tend to bring about their best. And when you build a strong relationship with the stakeholder where the needs of each party, the company and the different stakeholders, are fully met, this stakeholder tend to respond in a very supportive way, in a kind way, and help you achieve these key performance indicators, profitability, productivity, a higher sales, lower cost.
[00:10:36] Why? Because you care for them, and by caring for them, you’re caring for your business.
[00:10:42] Pol Cousineau: So as you’re explaining this, on paper it seems to make sense. Now you mentioned that there’s hundreds of companies, and in my intro I was sharing how, hey, when I look, right, in the business world or as an accountant, I actually was an auditor. I still have my license. I didn’t see it that much in practice.
[00:11:00] It just looked like a seal and you say, “Hey, we care about people, we care about the environment.” What are some examples of these companies?
[00:11:07] Bruno Cignacco: Well, I can give you example from different sectors, but, uh, one example that I mentioned, and is a very well-known example, is Patagonia. Patagonia is a company that, uh, develop attire, outdoor attire, um, uh, very high quality attire, and this company has been involved in environmental activities. Environmental activities which implies caring for the environment, donating a lot of resources for the environment. We can say that the environment, the world as it- as itself, is also a very important stakeholder. But if we talk about employees, look at this company, how particular is this company. When employees go to work at Patagonia, they…
[00:11:52] when they have children, many of the employees have children, they have a, a childcare service on site that employees can take their children, live there when they’re working. This is paid by the company. This represent a cost by, for the company, paying these childcare services, and they can visit during their break, during the, for example, the midday break, and employees feel more at ease. And when employees feel more at ease because they’re not stressed, because they don’t have to look for additional childcare, they can be more innovative, they can be more creative, they can be more cooperative. And this company has one of the best, uh, brand images in the world, in the, in the fashion sector, in the attire sector. Why? Because they’re not only focused on the economic aspects. If you see their business mission include economic aspects, obviously they want to grow, they have been growing very substantially, but also they have care for people and care for the environment too. They try to avoid any type of, for example, um, components for their, their clothes that are, uh, for example, coming from cotton that might not be organic.
[00:13:10] Why? Because they try to avoid cotton that is not organic. Why? Because cotton that is not organic include pesticides, include chemical ingredient. So they’re also caring not only for the environment now, but they’re caring for the environment for future generation. These type of companies, one of the companies that, uh, we comment about the sustainable company.
[00:13:31] They think about the present moment, but also they think about the future. They have a long-term orientation. This is quite relevant because, um, uh, this company has been in the marketplace, and this company so is selling attire And very strangely, this company use… I’m a marketer. This company use what we call the anti-marketing or anti-marketing.
[00:13:56] So promotion that are discouraging customer to buy product that are not necessarily relevant to them. I remember, I mentioned also this in the book, I saw a, a promotion, an advert that said, “Do not buy this jacket. Do not buy this jacket.” They are selling jacket and do not buy… Why? Do
[00:14:15] not buy this jacket if you don’t need it.
[00:14:18] You might need only one jacket or two, but some people change jacket like they’re changing very frequently, and this is creating also a production, higher production of cloth, uh, items, and it’s creating carbon dioxide emissions, and this is indirectly contributing negatively to the environment. So the company, even with this promotion, they’re selling fewer jackets, they’re also doing with an interest in the environment.
[00:14:48] So this mean that they have a broader business purpose, which include economic aspect, social aspect, and environmental aspect. And you said I, I like… I’m, I’m an accountant too. I work my first few years as a… experience, I work as an accountant, also auditing and cost and cost projection and merchant and acquisition. Um, we see in accounting that this is very common, say, “Oh, we need to make profit.” But what happen if we take only this as the business purpose? We have to make profit. Where is the limit? Where is the
[00:15:24] limit? So will you make profit by deceiving customers? Will you make profit by exploiting employees? Will you make profit by polluting the environment? If this is the only objective, you might get away by making profit, but only for a short term because your brand image will go down, your reputation go down. When it’s publicized that you’re exploiting employees, that you’re polluting the environment, that you’re mistreating staff members, that you are deceiving your suppliers, that you’re not caring for the environment, you can get profit, but to a certain extent, because this will backfire you.
[00:16:03] So this mean that being only profit-oriented, where is the limit?
[00:16:07] Where is the limit? Like some will say it’s similar to drink alcohol. Where is the limit? Well, you, you know your own limit. But when companies start getting profit, can you tell them, “Okay, stop getting profit”? I’m not saying that profit are not good
[00:16:21] Pol Cousineau: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:21] Bruno Cignacco: Profit alongside social aspect, alongside environmental aspect.
[00:16:27] This mean that there should not be win-lose agreement. If you get profit by deceiving customers, this is a no-no. This is not compassion. If you make profit by exploiting employees, for example, using child labor, obviously child labor, some countries you see some Regrettably, you see some example of, bad example of company that are, they don’t have any ethics, and they’re using children, uh, because the legislation is a bit laxed or this is not discovered. Well, they’re making profit, but is it good? So this mean that we have to include not only the key performance indicator, but also the heart. Uh, so it’s business with the heart, and you’re not doing only because you are benevolent. Because research has clearly corroborated the fact that when you do business with the heart, your reputation goes up. You attract high quality customer, what we call in marketing conscious customer, that they do not only vote for the best product, the highest quality product, but also they look for product that are beneficial for the environment, that they’re res- made of recyclable material or recycled material and so on. But also you attract high quality investor, not investor that will invest in your company today and tomorrow will look for a second option. Investor that will look for sustainable invest- investing and also socially oriented investing means that investing in companies that are caring for the world, for people, for the society, that are adding value.
[00:18:15] They’re not only extracting profit, extra-
[00:18:18] but they’re giving and receiving. So there is an equilibrium between giving and receiving. And what we observe, yes, you see many companies in the marketplace that are profit-oriented, but you see also lot of blunders made by these companies, and in some cases, a matter of time that this company get out of the market. And with a, uh, great, uh- Publicization, publicization of the, of the, um, of the news. You see news publicized all over the place. You see in social media, you see in newspaper, you see in, uh, different platform. Any blunder made by the company can affect their, uh, reputation in a very immediate way. A company that was very honorable in the eyes of customer and the marketplace, when they make a blunder because they have been greedy, excessively greedy, and only profit-oriented, this will be pu-publicized, especially by sensationalistic newspaper that like this type of news.
[00:19:22] So every-everything is known soon, sooner or later. If companies behave only oriented to profit without a heart, these companies are more prone to be the, the, the very important material for this sens-sensationalistic media
[00:19:40] Pol Cousineau: I found is that there can be a cap, right? As I’m listening to what you’re saying, there’s a story here with a local mechanic, and he had bad practices.
[00:19:51] So people buy parts, he doesn’t put the right parts in the car, makes extra money that way. But then he had to relocate because no one wanted to buy from him, and everyone in the area hated this mechanic. And when I was talking to some of the locals, then they said, “Oh, yeah, and when we were noticing he was doing this, we started talking around, and we heard he used to be in this area, and he was doing that in th- in that other area.”
[00:20:15] Now, Costa Rica is big, but it’s not really. It is still quite small, and the news has been traveling, and because he’s doing these bad practices, it’s going to hurt his long-term business, right? Because you can only burn so many bridges. From what you share, this is what I’m kind of sensing that can happen to those companies that are becoming too greedy.
[00:20:38] Because at first, extract as much money, it’s going well, everything is great, but as people start finding out, now you have fires to fight or your reputation is damaged in a country or global now because it can easily go viral on the internet. Did you notice perhaps something like that where it’s like the growth ceiling?
[00:20:58] Bruno Cignacco: Totally. Totally. For example, let’s talk about, for example, uh, an environment, a work environment that is fear-driven, where employees are not treated with compassion, but they are, uh, the, the managers or, and people in the management team are continually infusing fear. What type of fear? For example, fear of being fired, or fear of being penalized, or fear of being, uh, for example, disclose, uh, private information, confidential information.
[00:21:27] I see many cases of this. Uh, what you observe that when companies are– have this toxic workplace, toxic work environment, this company cannot get away. Why? Because there are some platform, for example, Glassdoor. Glassdoor is a platform, a global platform where companies cannot get away. Ex-employees or current employees can rate the companies, can comment about the advantages of working there and disadvantages. And many employees when they’re applying for a job, look into this page, Glassdoor’s, and they can see that there is a, in some cases, a commonality. All employees are saying, “You know what? This company is abusing of employees’ time. They’re not paying additional time, overtime. They are trying to, uh, provide with multi-pro– multi, uh, deadline projects.
[00:22:20] They, they are not respecting employees’ weekend.” And many employees, even when they need their money, uh, from work, they, they might look for other opportunities because in this platform also you can see positive comments on the company. So this mean that it’s not only the word, the traditional word of mouth, ear to ear, but also the, uh, online word of mouth, uh, that is this type of platform, for example, for employees, Glassdoor, or for example, any review platform for customers.
[00:22:52] Customer will check the reviews, and customer are very honest and credible. Why? Because customer are cooperative by nature. If they had a bad experience, they want to share with others because they want to prevent them from having this experience. If they have a positive experience, and they are delighted, as we call in marketing, they will be very interested in sharing this delight and sharing this exceptional product with others. Again, company that sells shoddy products, uh, well, with the negative reviews, they might not get away for so long because at the end they can move from one place to another, but here we’re talking about online platform that can be viewed from any place. So the idea is that this is the reality today. In the past, companies were probably more prone to get away with acting in a very unethical way. Now, because, uh, the, the, the marketplace has this platform that made any unethical behavior so transparent It’s very difficult, and reputation is key because reputation take a lot, lot of time to build up. But with a few blunders and, uh, with a dismissal of customers, uh, not caring for customer or not caring for employees, company can affect their reputation negatively very quickly, very quickly, and this is v- very difficult to recover. So you’re right, you’re right. Uh, and the case that you mentioned about the, the mechanic, well, I’m not sure how long this mechanic will get away. Even they might– They can change their, their location to another country, but at the end, this will be publicized on- online. So I’m not sure they will get away for, for a long time. And this is a win-lose agreement. What they expect? What company that are successful, really successful do? They do the opposite. What– You know what is the opposite? We call with a very simple motto Under promise, over deliver. Under promise, over deliver. So this mean that you are humble with your promise to customers. You’re do- you don’t exaggerate, you don’t brag about your services, and then you deliver more than customer expected. You go beyond their expectation. You are generous. Supposing… Let’s talk, let’s talk about the example of the mechanic. Supposing that the mechanic, he have to fix the car, and they fix the car, they have a, a budget, uh, the quote f- for fixing this car. If the, the mechanic act in a different way, in a compassionate way, in a customer-oriented way, they will give some services free. They might change some tires for this car without charging. They might clean the car fully, and they try to surprise customer positively, creating an imbalance, a positive imbalance, and by creating this imbalance, customer feel compelled to reciprocate. Customer will say, “Oh, they gave me more than I expect.” And they feel indebted with this professional, and they are more prone to come back, become loyal, leave positive reviews, what will attract more customers because positive reviews are more credible than advertising. Why? Because advertising is always biased. What you expect advertising to talk bad about a company? Instead, customer can talk well or can talk in a very wrong way about companies, in a negative way. When customer leave positive review, this is gold for companies because the potential customer are more prone to be attracted to this company. And if customer feel that their needs are exceeded, what we call in marketing delighted, this customer, according to research and according to many example that I’ve seen in practice, are more prone to become loyal, and a customer that is loyal is a customer for life. When the customer is loyal, customer even can become very forgiving. This mean that they can, uh, overlook small mistake that are made by the company and become like another ambassador for this, uh, company
[00:27:09] Pol Cousineau: Now, what about companies where it’s mixed? So I like the car mechanic example. I went to another one. Amazing service. They exceeded my expectations, and it was small. S- what I mean is they had like a protector that they put on the seat so that when the mechanic is working, there’s no oil that goes in my car.
[00:27:28] They had a little snack for me, water bottle. I was comfortable. Everything was nice. Wow, this is amazing service. Clearly didn’t cost much money. In almost every part of their operation, the service was astounding. But there is one area of customer service that is just horrible and is terrible, and I don’t understand, and I even told them, I says, “I’m very confused,” because this had to do with their insurance department.
[00:27:55] And I said, “With the insurance department, six months later, I still don’t have this resolved. It’s a minor scratch. I had to get your insurance. It was a new car. But everything else in your organization is amazing. What is going on there?” Have you been seeing companies that might have those dichotomy
[00:28:13] Bruno Cignacco: very important. Very important. What would happen? In these type of companies, an area of the company that is not customer-oriented can ruin all the work of the other areas that are customer-oriented because they’re polluting the value added by the company. So this mean that how you solve this, this problem, supposing that you want to provide this company with advice, you have a meeting with the representative of every department or different areas of this company.
[00:28:40] For example, insurance area, mechanical area, and so on, administrative area. And you explain the simple, uh, fact that when you add value to customers, they’re more prone to come back. When you, when you do not add value means that you reduce value and you make customer experience negative emotions. So this mean how we call in marketing, dissatisfied. You made the customer dissatisfied, so this means it’s the opposite to customer satisfaction. This customer is more prone to regret, to complain, to leave negative reviews. It doesn’t matter which area of the company is not meeting the customer need because the customer see the company as a whole. Doesn’t see, “Oh, this area,” and so on. Everything’s the same company. Doesn’t care if one area is better or the other. They’re buying a service that is solving their problem and adding value to their lives. So when you explain this, and you explain also that the profit come not from the sky, from s- some mysterious place, but come from customers, in most cases, for most companies, and caring for customer is caring for the main source of company, uh, uh, profits, make a lot of sense.
[00:29:54] And you m-make sure that every area put customer first. This mean avoiding delays, avoiding keeping customer listening to anno- annoying music for 20 minutes every time that customer call you, avoiding a customer, uh, making promises, not, uh, delivering these promises, and, and not being loyal to, to your word. Very simple concepts, uh, that if you explain them, explain this concept to, to the employees, they’re more prone to understand because what happen? Uh, not only customer need to be satisfied by all areas of the company, all areas, not only the selling department, not only the customer service department, but the administrative department.
[00:30:43] Imagine that I buy a, a, a car, or I buy… or I go to a mechanic, they, they s- fixing my car, and then they send me the invoice six months later Six months later. Well, the administrative department is very delayed, very slow. Well, this tiny thing, receiving the invoice late, can affect the value that I’m receiving.
[00:31:05] So you can say it’s a minor thing. Yeah, they fix the car, but I don’t have the… I need invoice for tax purposes. Well, so this, everything is important. It’s a holistic approach. This mean that you take into account all the area. But I will go beyond what you are saying. In the book, I explain very clearly that you have to satisfy the needs of customer.
[00:31:26] What means satisfy the needs of customer? Making them experience positive emotion in relation to your products, services, and your company before they buy the product or service, during the buying process, and afterwards. Many companies go up to the product is sold. So they say, “Oh, we want the customer, we want to get this customer,” and so on.
[00:31:50] “We’ll try to treat this customer well,” and this and so on. Then when they sell the product or the service, they disappear. Customer try to contact them, they… It’s inexistent. So… Or they put the music, or they don’t answer the emails, and customer start feeling regretful, angry. they, they they start feeling anxious, and they are thinking, “Will I leave a negative review? Will I push other customers away?” But also before selling the product, we say, “Why we have to make customer feel well, satisfied before selling?” Are you lying? Are you telling lies on your website that you say that this car will be fixed in two weeks, and then took me four weeks to have this car fixed? Are you, are you overpromising and underdelivering, what is the opposite that I recommend? Are you exaggerating? Are you, uh, embellishing the facts? Well, if so, you are lying to me. You are not adding value. You are reducing value. You add value, or you reduce value. So… And during the sale process too. So before, during, and after. During the sale process, do customer feel pressurized when they, they are being sold the product? Do they… Are they ma-made to sign any fine print in the contract that could be not beneficial for them? Are they, are they manipulated with gimmicks, marketing, uh, uh, strategies that are not very ethical? If so, you are not adding value. So this mean that customers should experience positive emotion before During the buying process and afterwards.
[00:33:35] You should care customer as one of the most important assets because it’s, for most company, except investment companies, it’s the main source of profit. So this mean that you are caring for a very relevant asset. And it, it take a lot of time in many cases to get a good customer. But a good customer that then become loyal can have a multiplying effect.
[00:33:59] Why? Because this can attract customer that are connected to this customer, family member, friend, partners. But also other customer, if this customer leave positive reviews online, this customer is more prone to bring other potential customer that couldn’t have been attracted without this positive customer review
[00:34:19] Pol Cousineau: So that’s a lot to take into account, and I agree with what you’re saying because that’s how I felt. In my experience, then I couldn’t recommend that company anymore because of that negative experience. And then I was actually internally conflicted as the customer because I was like, “Oh, they’re so amazing in these areas.
[00:34:36] It seems like I should be recommending them when someone is asking.” But on the other hand, this area, right, went terribly.
[00:34:43] But in this context, right, I’m the one observing it. I’m outside the company, I’m giving them feedback.
[00:34:50] But a lot of people listening may not know which area of their company could have lower customer service or impacts, right?
[00:34:58] You mentioned, hey, what is the sales promise? What is the post-customer experience? How do we get to get a good understanding
[00:35:06] Bruno Cignacco: ca- I can tell you a very actionable tip. I know that your audience like actionable tip. I will give you an actionable tip that has zero cost, okay? Zero cost, and we have to be very attentive to this simple tip. It’s so simple that people will be surprised. Look at your reviews. Look at customer reviews online.
[00:35:26] When you sell, customer will leave reviews. You will find common… This is free research. You don’t have to contract a consultant. You don’t have to hire an advisor specialized in marketing. It’s free. It’s there, public, available. Read the reviews. Take one full day to read the reviews, but read the hard facts. Don’t get sad if the reviews are negative. You stay there, calm, objective. You take note of the negative points, especially the negative points where you can learn. You take note of the commonalities. You, you might find some common factors. Some might say, “Oh, the packaging is breaking down very easily.” And the second says something similar, “The packaging doesn’t last so long.” Okay, and then a third one said, “Oh, the packaging is b– made of, uh, uh, low-quality material.” Maybe after reading these three reviews that are very similar, you have a talk to the packaging department, and you will say, “You know what?” You give them constructive feedback because there is a full chapter in the book about constructive feedback.
[00:36:29] You don’t blame them. You don’t terrorize them. You don’t guilt-trip the packaging team at all. You say, “You know what? We have some challenges.” You explain the facts, but also you look for a way ahead, for a way for a, a, a change orientation, means an improvement orientation. You say, “You know what?” You, you give, uh, some comments about what they are doing well, and you say, “You know, we have some, uh, challenges.
[00:36:57] I know that you have been working very hard,” and so on. “We have a few reviews that we want to discuss with you. What is your idea?” And you show them the reviews. You allow, you interact. It’s not unilateral, uh, exchange, but you allow them to engage in a dialogue. You say, “What you think? What could be the problem?”
[00:37:15] You ask for their view also, that they’re very immersed in that area, and you ask for suggestion. And then you say something like this, uh, this is also based on research that many companies use, “We have very high expectation about your performance. I’m sure that you are capable of meeting this expectation and improving this, uh, thing that are not right there yet. Our idea for the future,” you set an objective for the future, “is to have a packaging that is unbreakable, durable, enduring, so that we can receive better customer reviews. This will be benefiting you as an employee, the company itself, the whole brand image, and so on.” Uh, uh, you offer also some support in many cases because compassionate But improve implies also supporting employees.
[00:38:05] You say, “Do you need some training about how to make the packaging much more durable? Do you need some online courses, or we– do we need some, um, for example, some specialist that can briefly explain how to, uh, make this much more enduring?” And you will see that i-if you explain in a very compassionate way, kind way, without trying to penalize and withdraw it, but with the purpose of going from what is not right there yet to a positive view about the future and trusting that the employee can do it, because also when you trust the employee, you have positive expectations.
[00:38:43] These employees are more prone to fulfill this expectation. Instead, when you are, uh, kind of pessimistic because you say, “Mm, they won’t be able to do this well,” you are… you have lost the, the, the, this game, completely lost the game. So free research online.
[00:39:02] Free research. Read the reviews. Why companies do not read the reviews in many cases?
[00:39:07] Because they do not want to face the hard facts. The hard facts, even they are painful, they are there for your improvement. Im- ten customers say that the packaging breaks down or 20 customers say that they are always… goods are arriving late, and they are… and they leave you one star, well, this is not negative criticism.
[00:39:30] This is feedback, feedback that will help you grow, and grow in a way that you cannot imagine. Because if you take this on board, and you are very serious about this and professional, and you say, “You know what? I will set the timeline. The packaging will be resolved in the next two weeks. We will try to get clear.
[00:39:51] We might offer to this customer that complained a free gift with a new packaging for them to give their opinion.” This will be day and night. You… Day and night. See, this is simple tip, very easy to apply, but many companies are a kind of, um, not humble. Uh, because accepting the hard facts, you need to be humble.
[00:40:15] You say, “You know what? We made some mistakes. The, this business endeavor is a learning process. We can do better. We learn painfully, but it’s not the end of the game” because in business, as many author will say, it’s an infinite game. We can improve, and we can even get better. This is a good opportunity. Co- framing this as a positive is a good opportunity to probably become the company with the best packaging in the world because…
[00:40:45] And, and we want to see. And also, you analyze what other companies, not only your company, you analyze what the company that are best-selling have that you don’t have. Many company don’t want to do this because it’s also very painful, and if you’re not humble enough, you will say, “No, I cannot do this.” What you do, you review the company with impeccable reviews in your sector.
[00:41:09] This is free, too. You don’t have to hire any consultant. And when you review this, you will face, again, hard facts, brutal facts. And by doing so, you take these companies that I won’t call competitors, I will call this like a teachers for your company. They are examples to be emulated, role models to be taken into account. And you replicate but adapting to your company. You copy what can be copied, but in some cases, you cannot copy everything, but you might adapt to the characteristic, the idiosyncrasy of your company, the org… The, the culture of your company, but you take some ideas. You don’t have to generate idea from scratch. Some companies are already in good shape and excellent with, with very few negative reviews. Well, this will be important to see what they are doing well. So, this mean that these are role model. This is very simple and actionable, uh, tip. I know that many company will not do this because the only requirement for doing this is humility, humbleness
[00:42:22] Pol Cousineau: Yes, I could see that being challenging. Now, some businesses that do training, especially if they have an online course membership, that type of presence, may not have those reviews available. Why? Because what I’ve found is that their review channel is not encouraged at all. So there’s like Google Reviews, but those don’t tend to happen much for online training businesses because it requires a headquarter and all those things for Google My Business.
[00:42:48] And then they may not be baking that in their process. But they usually have a, if you’re a certain size, a customer service platform where your customer service team is interacting regularly with the customers, and that could be another channel that you can examine, and then have finding all the negative feedback that’s been received by your customer service team.
[00:43:10] And what I found is that normally the owners and executives are being shielded as well from those communications that might be more negative in those customer interactions. So that could be a goldmine. The other one is when you talked about looking at role models. If you have, uh, either yourself a book or if you want a role model example, you can look at other authors in your area and see the reviews that are on their books, because people write oftentimes a lot of information about what they liked in there.
[00:43:41] Or if you have your own book, then you could get reviews, right, on a platform like Amazon or something else like that. Have you seen those other channels as a good source of information?
[00:43:51] Bruno Cignacco: For example, when you say that company cannot have any feedback because in some cases this is not public and so on. Well, if the company doesn’t have any feedback, there is something wrong there because companies should have feedback. Be- be- because if they don’t have any feedback, any type of feedback, supposing that they’re delivering a course online, and then at the end of the course they are not encouraging company, uh, customer b- or companies, they are training companies or, uh, end customer by default to leave f- some feedback, they are acting blindly. They are acting blindly because how they c- can know if they are doing well or not? If company don’t have a feedback structure in their online platform, they have to embed it. So this will be the first point. And you are right. This can be applied for anything, for books, can be applied what … This also, when I wrote the book about compassionate business, I saw what was missing in other books.
[00:44:45] And what was missing in other book? A lot of example of compassionate companies. So not only theory, but example. In my latest edition, I have hundreds of example of compassionate company that can be taken into account by entrepreneurs or in the academic world To, uh, as examples and role model to emulate.
[00:45:07] Is … This mean that this is not a theoretical concept. It’s based on reality, based on science, but also based on reality. So feedback is key. I like what you commented about some leaders, CEOs or executive that are shielded. I like the word shielded.
[00:45:25] But in some case, in some cases they’re shielding themselves because what happened?
[00:45:29] Their position depends on not receiving any negative news because they try to isolate themselves from negative news, um, uh, simulate a continual positive performance. This is short-lived because if you are shielding yourself from negative news, uh, well, it will be very difficult to, uh, see reality, and reality will hit you with a key performance indicator sale going down, uh, or the company going bankrupt or under administration.
[00:46:05] So sooner or later reality will hit you. Better to know the hard facts as soon as possible. So quite important because if not, you … It’s like having a car without the gauge for petrol. You don’t know if you have petrol or not. You might get, uh, stranded immediately or in two miles, but it’s a matter of time. So you need to have this gauge. But these gauges are important not only to see if you are doing well or not, the key performance indicator, because if not, we’re only analyzing this from the economic perspective. Are we improving people’s lives? So this is the most important question. I am adding value to my stakeholders because by doing so, I am benefiting myself.
[00:46:59] Because there is another principle that I didn’t mention, that is the principle of interdependence. I cannot succeed without customers. I cannot succeed without employees, without suppliers, without the community. If I don’t care for them, other organization will do. Uh, if I don’t care for my employees, I need my employees to finish project, to meet deadlines, to generate new ideas.
[00:47:29] If I don’t care for them, these employees will choose other company. Customer, I need customer. It’s quite obvious. They’re generating profit if we satisfy their needs If I don’t care for them, because I’m not producing product to put them on a shelf, I’m producing product to sell, and to sell and resell, and sell more and so on. But it cannot be sold if you are not adding value to others. Again, interdependence. Many companies believe that they can succeed on their own without the help or support from customer, and this is connected to the previous, uh, concept that I mentioned, reciprocity. Because we are interdependent with customer, with employees, with community members, supplier, wouldn’t it be nice to have all these stakeholder on our side cooperating with our company? Can you force them to cooperate with our comp … Forcing to
[00:48:24] cooperate? No
[00:48:26] But if you satisfy their needs and you build win-win agreements, and you build mutually beneficial relationship with the stake-stakeholders, they’re more prone to cooperate spontaneously by, by, with their heart in a very unconditional way.
[00:48:43] Why? Because they feel compelled to reciprocate. Instead, when you treat them in a dismissive way, you don’t care for them, what you expect? Employees will work overtime? No. Customer will come back to your company? No. Uh, will a supplier build long-term agreement with your company at all? So the idea is that it’s so common sense, the concept of compassion in a w- in a way that I’m explaining, but some of these concepts are counterintuitive because many company by default say, ” No, it’s all about profit.” But profit, you need people to generate profit. You need them to be on your side. You cannot force them. You cannot terrorize them to help you get profit. Can you terrorize employee to be more productive? No. They will get stressed. They will get burnout. No. Instead, if you care for them, you are generous, you are supportive, you provide compassionate feedback, employees feel not stressed. They feel at ease. Their cognitive skills are enhanced. Their innovative and creative skills are also expanded, and they’re more prone to cooperate, and they’re more prone to give their best, and so on. So but, uh, this imply a new paradigm, expanding the view of business from a merely, uh, profit-oriented endeavor to a broader approach. Business are primarily to improve people lives. I know that sound altruistic, but when you improve people lives People will help you improve the business performance because they’re all connected. One benefit each other and vice versa. So the idea is that when you help them, they’re, they will help you unconditionally, becoming loyal, supportive, and so on.
[00:50:44] ​
[00:50:46] Pol Cousineau: How am I going to
[00:50:48] steer the ship?
[00:50:49] How am I going to
[00:50:49] explain this to everyone?
[00:50:51] How are we gonna
[00:50:51] get through this?
[00:50:52] So fear is the venom,
[00:50:54] the poison
[00:50:55] of any work environment.
[00:50:56] And it was such a relief
[00:50:58] to know that everyone
[00:51:00] in the organization
[00:51:01] were behind me,
[00:51:02] coming together.
[00:51:03] That stress reduced.
[00:51:04] Of course, the situation
[00:51:05] was still there,
[00:51:07] but the burden of it
[00:51:08] felt so much lighter.
[00:51:10] And by doing so,
[00:51:11] when you face difficulties,
[00:51:12] these stakeholders
[00:51:14] are more prone
[00:51:14] to support you unconditionally.
[00:51:16] Why?
[00:51:17] Because you care
[00:51:18] for them in advance.
[00:51:20] ​